Warriors, Wizards and Rogues – Rules Update

Warrors, Wizards and Rogues can come in just about any kindred,, size or gender.  Its what they do as a vocation that defines their type.

Warrors, Wizards and Rogues can come in just about any kindred, size or gender. Its what they do as a vocation that defines their type.

After fans and patrons expressed concerns about the intended changes re Talents, Professional Talents/Abilities, and related modifications to the rules, Liz and Bear met to discuss these twice when he was in Tucson earlier in November. Ken was not able to attend, but did follow the discussion afterward. This is the upshot.

(1) WARRIORS: No changes to what’s in the beta. Your warriors get the perks of being a warrior — armor bonus and weapons bonus — simply for showing up as that character type.

(2) WIZARDS: Wizard get to spend their adventure points like everyone else, in attribute raises and talents. However, in addition, wizards (and only wizards) may opt to specialize in a particular school of magic if have the AP to spend. Once per level, they can invest 300 AP to become an Adept in a particular school of magic. This represents advanced studies in that school, and allows spells within that school of magic to be cast more easily: a flat -3 cost to cast spells from that school. (All other restrictions still apply.)

(3) ROGUES: Rogues already benefit by being able to fight reasonably well and also cast spells. Early editions of the game forced rogues to make a choice between their fighting abilities and their magical inclinations at L7, becoming a full-fledged warrior or a full-fledged wizard, but they “forgot” their previous abilities. Later, they stopped having to choose but were left rather unremarkable, a substandard character type with little to recommend their use. The discussion led to this proposal, picking up elements introduced in many different editions, plus a new spin:

Rogues get one extra talent at the time of being rolled up. In addition, if they choose certain typically-rogue-like talents (suggestions are listed below; these will be starred in the final talents list), they can continue to take them as one more “free” talent at every other (even-numbered) level in addition to their more ordinary talents. These are treated exactly the same as all other talents, but rogues get extras.

At level 7, a rogue has the OPTION to specialize as a warrior or wizard, gaining the abilities of those classes without completely forgetting the knowledge or abilities he or she has acquired to date. In effect, these characters become the warrior-wizards of yore. Making the shift is not a requirement, but an option. If chosen, it is permanent.


A new warrior-rogue would have the armor bonus; the weapons bonus; but would retain the ability to cast those spells he or she has learned up to that time. They cannot learn to cast any new magic thereafter, and they can no longer get the rogues’ additional talents at each level.

A new magician-rogue would have the ability to use focus objects, to cast magic more easily for being higher level, to invent spells, and to benefit from specializing in particular schools of magic. They retain the ability to get their weapon adds for weapons greater than 2d6. They can no longer get the rogues’ additional talents at each level.

If, at level 7, the rogue chooses to remain a rogue, he or she will be able to continue collecting extra talents from among those described. (Because we do not consider these lists limited or definitive, players and GMs can develop other “rogue-like” abilities not described here, if they wish.) However, her or she may not morph into a warrior-rogue or a magician-rogue at a later stage of life. Old dogs, new tricks, and all that.


All characters may take these talents (which are all drawn from the main list of talents), but rogues pick them up more easily.

Sleight of hand
Lock picking
Stealth: hiding, tailing, evasion
Exceptional use of weapons: daggers
Cleverness (IQ)
Charming (CHR)

Let us know what you think of these new changes.  How does this compare with the previous version?  We look forward to hearing from you – and thanks for your patience.  Right now we are working on the last section of the book, so progress continues!

Categories: Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls News | 13 Comments

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13 thoughts on “Warriors, Wizards and Rogues – Rules Update

  1. Don Clarke

    This feels right to me. I like it 🙂

  2. Looks good!

    Are Charming and Cleverness the “automatically pass a saving roll” talents? Or a general bonus to any Charisma or IQ based SR?

  3. I am inclined to like this. Rogues now have something that makes them special as Rogues. Being able to specialize as a Warrior or Wizard at level 7 is gravy!

    This also makes Talents a solid part of the game.

  4. John Lach

    Looks good.

  5. James Scrabeck

    I like it. It gives a lot of variety to playing rogues. As said before, it makes Talents a potentially important part of the game that I hope will be emphasized in future modules. Great RP options here.

  6. Wow, I think I like this. It feels a *lot* simpler than the previous draft, while retaining some interest in each Type. I especially like the new Rogue: It’s simple, and flavorful. Thank you!

    My least favorite part is the Spell specialization idea, since it just changes numbers without any fictional substance, and adds another step into calculating the cost of casting a spell. But it seems like that option would be easy to leave out without breaking anything.


  7. You can safely assume all saving rolls will still fail on a fumble.

    As for the use of Charming and Clever, remember that talents are case-specific situational when a character attempts to use their talent when a GM asks for a relevant roll on an attribute. You could try to boondoggle a door guard about your presence where you shouldn’t be by telling a believable lie using your cleverness bonus to an IQ saving roll. Or just charm the socks off him/her with it as a CHR saving roll (acceptable but that’s too obvious). Being clever probably won’t help you figure out the door’s puzzle-lock even if it is an IQ roll. It might help you come up with the perfect justification for why the guard should unlock it FOR you, though. 🙂

  8. Brian

    I am on the fence about Rogues getting extra talents. I liked the ridiculous overpowered Roguery as a single talent advantage. I really like Rogues’ ability to become a rogue warrior or rogue wizard, spot on to the spirit of the game, and Ken’s history of TrollWorld.

    One feature of T&T to always admire is having short quick way to describe characters. Sure my character backstory may look like a novel (like all RPG characters) but a 3×5 card is all I need to play the character.

    PS. Are warriors maintaining their inability to spend WIZ as stated in beta rules?

  9. SSCrompton

    Let’s give a special Tip of the hat to Bear Peters who gave Liz some of the final ideas for this alternative solution. We are glad you all seem to like it…
    In other news – I got a big chunk of the Elaborations text that Liz gave me laid out this week. So good progress has been made…

  10. I like the new approach, well done!

  11. SSCrompton

    Its really gratifying to see that Liz, Bear and Ken have come up with something that so many of you like. Thanks for all your feedback and suggestions – its made a big difference. We may be late with getting dT&T done, but at least you know we are doing it right – and we are listening to you…

  12. Steve,
    I gave the beta another read over tonight and spotted a number of small typos. Is this something the Fellowship are interested in receiving a report of or have you had enough proofreading done on a more advance copy of the manuscript?

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